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	<title>Comments for Rational Thoughts</title>
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	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 27 Jul 2010 16:11:36 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on What Makes A Good Argument? by Blake</title>
		<link>http://www.philapologia.org/blog/2010/07/what-makes-a-good-argument/comment-page-1/#comment-1233</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jul 2010 16:11:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philapologia.org/blog/?p=1263#comment-1233</guid>
		<description>I asked Josh R. about this. He said &quot;I have the same objection as yours. Imagine an argument with a thousand premises, each of which you find slightly more plausible than not. You see that the argument is valid. Should you believe the conclusion? I think not.

But this may be a mere technical objection. The heart of what Craig says seems right. He might add that the conjunction of the premises should seem more plausible than not. Better: the proposition that the conjunction of the premises is true seems more plausible than not.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I asked Josh R. about this. He said &#8220;I have the same objection as yours. Imagine an argument with a thousand premises, each of which you find slightly more plausible than not. You see that the argument is valid. Should you believe the conclusion? I think not.</p>
<p>But this may be a mere technical objection. The heart of what Craig says seems right. He might add that the conjunction of the premises should seem more plausible than not. Better: the proposition that the conjunction of the premises is true seems more plausible than not.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>Comment on Cartesian Dualism and Abortion by Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.philapologia.org/blog/2010/07/cartesian-dualism-and-abortion/comment-page-1/#comment-1232</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jul 2010 15:18:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philapologia.org/blog/?p=1250#comment-1232</guid>
		<description>I think a Cartesian dualist would see the body as being slightly more than a posession that we own. It is what ties us to this world. When were deprived of a body, we&#039;re also deprived of all the experiences that this life may have had to offer us.

If wrote-off my car, the compensation required should be proportional to the extent to which I rely on it. If I had many cars, I could still get to work in one of the others.

In the same sense, a body is an essential vehicle required to experience life. it would be far more grievious to have ones body taken away than to experience some other run of the mill property crime.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think a Cartesian dualist would see the body as being slightly more than a posession that we own. It is what ties us to this world. When were deprived of a body, we&#8217;re also deprived of all the experiences that this life may have had to offer us.</p>
<p>If wrote-off my car, the compensation required should be proportional to the extent to which I rely on it. If I had many cars, I could still get to work in one of the others.</p>
<p>In the same sense, a body is an essential vehicle required to experience life. it would be far more grievious to have ones body taken away than to experience some other run of the mill property crime.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Good God and Evil World? by Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.philapologia.org/blog/2010/07/good-god-and-evil-world/comment-page-1/#comment-1231</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jul 2010 15:05:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philapologia.org/blog/?p=1233#comment-1231</guid>
		<description>Very good. Well presented</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very good. Well presented</p>
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		<title>Comment on What Makes A Good Argument? by Thrasymachus</title>
		<link>http://www.philapologia.org/blog/2010/07/what-makes-a-good-argument/comment-page-1/#comment-1229</link>
		<dc:creator>Thrasymachus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jul 2010 02:36:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philapologia.org/blog/?p=1263#comment-1229</guid>
		<description>Craig&#039;s answer strikes me as horribly and obviously mangled. 

To accept the conclusion of an argument, we need to accept not that any given premise is probably true, but that all premises are probably true. If the conjunction of premises is not probably true, then the conclusion isn&#039;t probably true, because it is probable at least one premise is wrong, thus the argument (given what we know) likely isn&#039;t sound.

A concrete example (I owe to Johnsonav)

1) Dice A, when rolled, comes up 1, 2, 3 or 4.
2) Dice B, when rolled, comes up 1, 2, 3 or 4.
C) Dice A and B come up 1-4

This is formally valid by conjunction introduction (or can be made formally valid easily if I&#039;ve slipped up). Now suppose I tell you I have rolled two dice, and argue in that manner. You should accept both 1 and 2: for a six sided fair dice, both Premise 1 and Premise 2 have a probability of 4/6. Yet you plainly shouldn&#039;t accept the conclusion of my argument, valid though it is. Because the probability of both A AND B coming up 1-4 is 4/9. Add as many dice as you care to strengthen the point further.

Another easy counter-example. Take all beliefs you hold about the truth or falsity about certain propositions - all questions you answer with a yes or a no (is there a Table in front of me? Does God exist, etc.) As you hold these beliefs, obviously you consider your beliefs more plausible than their negations. It follows by the same rule that if each of these beliefs 1...N is true, then your set of these beliefs are all true. Yet I shouldn&#039;t say that. I&#039;m fairly sure that at least one of these sorts of beliefs I hold is in error.

From what I can follow of Craig&#039;s argument, it doesn&#039;t seem to make sense. Talking about the argument being sound or whether it in fact follows is simply irrelevant - we can concede all his stuff about arguments being in fact sound or not, about bivalence over truth, and all the rest. If someone sets out a series of concerns (premises, here) to demonstrate a particular conclusion, the argument is only sound if, IN FACT, all premises are true. So whether you should accept the argument depends upon whether, insofar as your epistemic spotlight can tell, that it seems that all premises are true. If it&#039;s more probable that they collectively aren&#039;t, then you shouldn&#039;t accept the conclusion, even if, individually, each is more plausible than not. Attempting to beat an argument by introducing &#039;reasonable doubt&#039; into its premises is entirely acceptable, at it makes confirmation leak out - there are lots of ways the argument could plausibly &#039;go wrong&#039;. 

So Craig is surely wrong here (although he&#039;s right to note that the original question implies a rebutting defeater in the dog example). The error, insofar as I can tell, springs from an obsession with the P=0.5 threshold. Arguments with premises P much greater than 0.5 can fail to force their conclusions. Likewise, arguments with premises that aren&#039;t more likely than their negations may also have some role (consider the Kalam example above with Ps of 0.6 - that still can be &#039;useful&#039; if discussing with someone who sets P(God) below 0.36). 

For what makes a good argument, I think it is simply one which, when heard, exerts pressure to change a reasonable persons probability assignment. I suspect for deductive arguments, it is simply whether the conjunction of the premises is more likely true than not. If you want to show that God exists by the lights of the Kalam argument, that&#039;s the sort of standard you need. For abductive arguments, not so much: you just need to show instead of P(conjunction of premises)&gt;0.5, something milder like P(E&#124;God)&gt;P(E&#124;¬god), where E is some evidence. Our assignment of P(E) itself doesn&#039;t really matter (although obviously if it is low the argumentative force will be pathetic either way). 

Why are the rules different? In the former case, we are after the actual probability of God&#039;s existence, whereas in the latter we are considering the likelihood ratio. A deductive argument sets a lower bound on P(conclusion) equal to P(conjunctofpremises). If this is higher than our prior assignment, we&#039;ve made progress (and if it&#039;s higher than P=0.5, it commands belief. If not, it&#039;s feckless. For an abductive or Bayesian argument, we just need to show that it confirms our conclusion over its negation. The persuasive for this will have will be prior sensitive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Craig&#8217;s answer strikes me as horribly and obviously mangled. </p>
<p>To accept the conclusion of an argument, we need to accept not that any given premise is probably true, but that all premises are probably true. If the conjunction of premises is not probably true, then the conclusion isn&#8217;t probably true, because it is probable at least one premise is wrong, thus the argument (given what we know) likely isn&#8217;t sound.</p>
<p>A concrete example (I owe to Johnsonav)</p>
<p>1) Dice A, when rolled, comes up 1, 2, 3 or 4.<br />
2) Dice B, when rolled, comes up 1, 2, 3 or 4.<br />
C) Dice A and B come up 1-4</p>
<p>This is formally valid by conjunction introduction (or can be made formally valid easily if I&#8217;ve slipped up). Now suppose I tell you I have rolled two dice, and argue in that manner. You should accept both 1 and 2: for a six sided fair dice, both Premise 1 and Premise 2 have a probability of 4/6. Yet you plainly shouldn&#8217;t accept the conclusion of my argument, valid though it is. Because the probability of both A AND B coming up 1-4 is 4/9. Add as many dice as you care to strengthen the point further.</p>
<p>Another easy counter-example. Take all beliefs you hold about the truth or falsity about certain propositions &#8211; all questions you answer with a yes or a no (is there a Table in front of me? Does God exist, etc.) As you hold these beliefs, obviously you consider your beliefs more plausible than their negations. It follows by the same rule that if each of these beliefs 1&#8230;N is true, then your set of these beliefs are all true. Yet I shouldn&#8217;t say that. I&#8217;m fairly sure that at least one of these sorts of beliefs I hold is in error.</p>
<p>From what I can follow of Craig&#8217;s argument, it doesn&#8217;t seem to make sense. Talking about the argument being sound or whether it in fact follows is simply irrelevant &#8211; we can concede all his stuff about arguments being in fact sound or not, about bivalence over truth, and all the rest. If someone sets out a series of concerns (premises, here) to demonstrate a particular conclusion, the argument is only sound if, IN FACT, all premises are true. So whether you should accept the argument depends upon whether, insofar as your epistemic spotlight can tell, that it seems that all premises are true. If it&#8217;s more probable that they collectively aren&#8217;t, then you shouldn&#8217;t accept the conclusion, even if, individually, each is more plausible than not. Attempting to beat an argument by introducing &#8216;reasonable doubt&#8217; into its premises is entirely acceptable, at it makes confirmation leak out &#8211; there are lots of ways the argument could plausibly &#8216;go wrong&#8217;. </p>
<p>So Craig is surely wrong here (although he&#8217;s right to note that the original question implies a rebutting defeater in the dog example). The error, insofar as I can tell, springs from an obsession with the P=0.5 threshold. Arguments with premises P much greater than 0.5 can fail to force their conclusions. Likewise, arguments with premises that aren&#8217;t more likely than their negations may also have some role (consider the Kalam example above with Ps of 0.6 &#8211; that still can be &#8216;useful&#8217; if discussing with someone who sets P(God) below 0.36). </p>
<p>For what makes a good argument, I think it is simply one which, when heard, exerts pressure to change a reasonable persons probability assignment. I suspect for deductive arguments, it is simply whether the conjunction of the premises is more likely true than not. If you want to show that God exists by the lights of the Kalam argument, that&#8217;s the sort of standard you need. For abductive arguments, not so much: you just need to show instead of P(conjunction of premises)&gt;0.5, something milder like P(E|God)&gt;P(E|¬god), where E is some evidence. Our assignment of P(E) itself doesn&#8217;t really matter (although obviously if it is low the argumentative force will be pathetic either way). </p>
<p>Why are the rules different? In the former case, we are after the actual probability of God&#8217;s existence, whereas in the latter we are considering the likelihood ratio. A deductive argument sets a lower bound on P(conclusion) equal to P(conjunctofpremises). If this is higher than our prior assignment, we&#8217;ve made progress (and if it&#8217;s higher than P=0.5, it commands belief. If not, it&#8217;s feckless. For an abductive or Bayesian argument, we just need to show that it confirms our conclusion over its negation. The persuasive for this will have will be prior sensitive.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Cartesian Dualism and Abortion by Tim H</title>
		<link>http://www.philapologia.org/blog/2010/07/cartesian-dualism-and-abortion/comment-page-1/#comment-1201</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jul 2010 07:56:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philapologia.org/blog/?p=1250#comment-1201</guid>
		<description>Perhaps. A future-like-ours argument would still work (And would probably be all that the pro-lifer has left). It would, however, deal a rather large blow to personhood arguments, which is how most pro-life advocates tend to argue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps. A future-like-ours argument would still work (And would probably be all that the pro-lifer has left). It would, however, deal a rather large blow to personhood arguments, which is how most pro-life advocates tend to argue.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Cartesian Dualism and Abortion by Thrasymachus</title>
		<link>http://www.philapologia.org/blog/2010/07/cartesian-dualism-and-abortion/comment-page-1/#comment-1200</link>
		<dc:creator>Thrasymachus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jul 2010 06:51:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philapologia.org/blog/?p=1250#comment-1200</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure that this concern is particularly problematic for Abortion. If you&#039;re right that Cartesianism entails being debonair about bodily abuses (as it&#039;s only property) then that applies to almost everything. It wouldn&#039;t be only abortion that &#039;wasn&#039;t murder&#039;, but nothing could be murder.

Yet I don&#039;t think you&#039;re right here. It seems simple for a substance dualist to say something like: &quot;Sure, you aren&#039;t your body, but your body (in fact) is the only route through which your soul interacts with the world, and body and soul interact. So abuses to your body can harm your soul too (e.g. pain from bodily torture). Murder is bad not because it &#039;kills&#039; your immaterial self, but because it precludes that self from enjoying the great goods of bodily life.&quot; Wouldn&#039;t this get Descartes out of jail?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure that this concern is particularly problematic for Abortion. If you&#8217;re right that Cartesianism entails being debonair about bodily abuses (as it&#8217;s only property) then that applies to almost everything. It wouldn&#8217;t be only abortion that &#8216;wasn&#8217;t murder&#8217;, but nothing could be murder.</p>
<p>Yet I don&#8217;t think you&#8217;re right here. It seems simple for a substance dualist to say something like: &#8220;Sure, you aren&#8217;t your body, but your body (in fact) is the only route through which your soul interacts with the world, and body and soul interact. So abuses to your body can harm your soul too (e.g. pain from bodily torture). Murder is bad not because it &#8216;kills&#8217; your immaterial self, but because it precludes that self from enjoying the great goods of bodily life.&#8221; Wouldn&#8217;t this get Descartes out of jail?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Muslim Demographics by Michael Pearson</title>
		<link>http://www.philapologia.org/blog/2010/07/muslim-demographics/comment-page-1/#comment-1187</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Pearson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Jul 2010 07:38:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philapologia.org/blog/?p=1227#comment-1187</guid>
		<description>I could not agree more with the posts above me.  
Tim, I find it offensive that you would post a video like this under the banner of &quot;Rational Thoughts&quot;.  This video is nothing but xenophobic, racist, fear-mongering nonsense.  By the narrator&#039;s tone you would think he was talking about a species of rodent or some kind of vermin.  As the individual above me pointed out, the overwhelming majority of muslims who move to the west manage to integrate successfully within the culture that they find themselves.  It is not some sort of conspiracy to REPLACE cultures of the west.
Anybody who watches this video I strongly urge you to read the comments that are being posted here, and most importantly: do NOT trust what you see in this video.  No sources are cited, and the rational individual is able to recognize propaganda when he/she sees it.  It is not only offensive in its tone and content, but in the fact that this is supposed to be associated with Christianity - this is IN NO WAY in keeping with the spirit of Christianity, and you do the religion as a whole a GREAT disservice by suggesting otherwise (both the creator of the video, and you for posting it, Tim).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I could not agree more with the posts above me.<br />
Tim, I find it offensive that you would post a video like this under the banner of &#8220;Rational Thoughts&#8221;.  This video is nothing but xenophobic, racist, fear-mongering nonsense.  By the narrator&#8217;s tone you would think he was talking about a species of rodent or some kind of vermin.  As the individual above me pointed out, the overwhelming majority of muslims who move to the west manage to integrate successfully within the culture that they find themselves.  It is not some sort of conspiracy to REPLACE cultures of the west.<br />
Anybody who watches this video I strongly urge you to read the comments that are being posted here, and most importantly: do NOT trust what you see in this video.  No sources are cited, and the rational individual is able to recognize propaganda when he/she sees it.  It is not only offensive in its tone and content, but in the fact that this is supposed to be associated with Christianity &#8211; this is IN NO WAY in keeping with the spirit of Christianity, and you do the religion as a whole a GREAT disservice by suggesting otherwise (both the creator of the video, and you for posting it, Tim).</p>
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		<title>Comment on Muslim Demographics by Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.philapologia.org/blog/2010/07/muslim-demographics/comment-page-1/#comment-1185</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jul 2010 12:31:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philapologia.org/blog/?p=1227#comment-1185</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve seen that video. Talk about right-wing fear-mongering. Who says our Western culture is superior anyway?

Many of the Muslims that move to the West end up adopting large elements of western culture and values, those that don&#039;t often have children that do. This is a good thing.

Videos like this only cause trouble, by encouraging racism and intolerance. It is irresponsible of Christians to spread this sort of nonsense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve seen that video. Talk about right-wing fear-mongering. Who says our Western culture is superior anyway?</p>
<p>Many of the Muslims that move to the West end up adopting large elements of western culture and values, those that don&#8217;t often have children that do. This is a good thing.</p>
<p>Videos like this only cause trouble, by encouraging racism and intolerance. It is irresponsible of Christians to spread this sort of nonsense.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Muslim Demographics by Midas Vuik</title>
		<link>http://www.philapologia.org/blog/2010/07/muslim-demographics/comment-page-1/#comment-1181</link>
		<dc:creator>Midas Vuik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jul 2010 17:38:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philapologia.org/blog/?p=1227#comment-1181</guid>
		<description>Meh, this video is REALLY unreliable. There are a lot of good debunkings of it, but here&#039;s the best one - http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/demographics.asp</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Meh, this video is REALLY unreliable. There are a lot of good debunkings of it, but here&#8217;s the best one &#8211; <a href="http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/demographics.asp" rel="nofollow">http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/demographics.asp</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on Rational Bytes #8 by Quentin Mcclean</title>
		<link>http://www.philapologia.org/blog/2010/06/rational-bytes-8/comment-page-1/#comment-1173</link>
		<dc:creator>Quentin Mcclean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jul 2010 10:05:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philapologia.org/blog/?p=1030#comment-1173</guid>
		<description>Incredible! can be awesome giving. Thank you significantly!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Incredible! can be awesome giving. Thank you significantly!</p>
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